Discussion:
Second Rifle in the Mentesana Film?
(too old to reply)
Robert Harris
2006-09-09 04:19:31 UTC
Permalink
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.

Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.

In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.

Interested lurkers can view that segment of the film here:

http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov

You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.

Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.

In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.

OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.

Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)





Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
2006-09-09 18:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL! So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!

First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.

It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.

Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
Robert Harris
2006-09-09 20:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.

Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?

Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?

All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
now to doomsday and it won't change what is in this part of the film:

http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)




Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
2006-09-09 20:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Which in particular are you referring to?
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
Who are you citing in particular?
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
"ROFLMAO"

I'll remember that quote of yours, Bob. If you don't mind, I think I'll
start using
the phrase you helped make so famous on this NG- "ROFLMAO"
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Do you ever actually reread what you've written, Bob?

Let me repeat what you said above since you apparently missed it:

"In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about."

You just made an assumption that they were transfixed by the gun and were
"apparently" talking about it, Bob.
Post by Robert Harris
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
Like the part where you claim that they are apparently talking about the
rifle, Bob?

(sigh)
Post by Robert Harris
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon,
How many faces can you see, Bob? It just couldn't be that they were looking
at the
chap that was talking...and holding a gun, could it...Bob?


whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
Yeah, a bunch of guys in a circle listening to a cop talking and holding a
gun.
Post by Robert Harris
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Yeah, my idea is "moronic", Bob. Your the one claiming that a silent film
showing
a bunch of people whose faces you can't see are all "apparently" transfixed
and
"apparently" chatting about a gun that you claim is a rifle...but can't know
for sure.

You can snipe all about these "moronic" claims all you want, Bob...but
you're the
one making them. If you're not careful, you might be making yourself look
like a...what
was that word you used and are bitching about...?

Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-09 23:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman and he admitted that he was wrong. And he
did not handle it or examine it closely. He only looked at it from a few
feet away. You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
Robert Harris
2006-09-10 01:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman
Pure bullshit!!

Weitzman was accompanied by Officer Eugene Boone, who also inspected the
weapon and filed a report with the Sheriff's Office, clearly stating
that it was a 7.65mm Mauser.

The next day, district attorney, Henry Wade gave a press conference,
confirming exactly what both of the officers stated and documented.
Post by Anthony Marsh
and he admitted that he was wrong.
What?!

A cop changed his story to match the official line??

Say it ain't so, Tony:-)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And he
did not handle it or examine it closely.
Ahh yes! After an "off record discusion", he declared that he only
"glanced" at it.

Not bad, for getting the make, the caliber, the exact spec of the scope
and a even a detailed description of the sling.

And since when do police officers sign sworn affidavits containing all
that detail, based on a casual "glance"?

After that, Captain Fritz, officer Day, officer Boone, and other
officers looked at that same rifle, and NOT ONE of them disputed the
claim that it was a 7.65 Mauser.
Post by Anthony Marsh
He only looked at it from a few
feet away.
You have no idea what he did.

You only know what he claimed he did in order to rationalize totally
changing his story.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Abnormally high??

This was Dallas, not Mudville Flats. They handled thousands of murder
cases and never had a reputation for incompetence. You people would have
them making more "mistakes" on this one case than they did on the
previous 100.




Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
cdddraftsman
2006-09-10 04:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Shall we pass the collection plate around , to get robert a pair of
bi-goggles , so he can see the difference between a shotgun and a rifle
, e'h ? Apparently his current ones act as though he's looking thru a
fish tank ........Tom Lowry
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman
Pure bullshit!!
Weitzman was accompanied by Officer Eugene Boone, who also inspected the
weapon and filed a report with the Sheriff's Office, clearly stating
that it was a 7.65mm Mauser.
The next day, district attorney, Henry Wade gave a press conference,
confirming exactly what both of the officers stated and documented.
Post by Anthony Marsh
and he admitted that he was wrong.
What?!
A cop changed his story to match the official line??
Say it ain't so, Tony:-)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And he
did not handle it or examine it closely.
Ahh yes! After an "off record discusion", he declared that he only
"glanced" at it.
Not bad, for getting the make, the caliber, the exact spec of the scope
and a even a detailed description of the sling.
And since when do police officers sign sworn affidavits containing all
that detail, based on a casual "glance"?
After that, Captain Fritz, officer Day, officer Boone, and other
officers looked at that same rifle, and NOT ONE of them disputed the
claim that it was a 7.65 Mauser.
Post by Anthony Marsh
He only looked at it from a few
feet away.
You have no idea what he did.
You only know what he claimed he did in order to rationalize totally
changing his story.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Abnormally high??
This was Dallas, not Mudville Flats. They handled thousands of murder
cases and never had a reputation for incompetence. You people would have
them making more "mistakes" on this one case than they did on the
previous 100.
Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
2006-09-10 06:50:16 UTC
Permalink
You gotta love how he preempts the criticism by claiming he's agnostic on
the issue...right before he takes a stance on it.

No wonder his site hit the top 5% of all sites...

Chad
Post by cdddraftsman
Shall we pass the collection plate around , to get robert a pair of
bi-goggles , so he can see the difference between a shotgun and a rifle
, e'h ? Apparently his current ones act as though he's looking thru a
fish tank ........Tom Lowry
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman
Pure bullshit!!
Weitzman was accompanied by Officer Eugene Boone, who also inspected the
weapon and filed a report with the Sheriff's Office, clearly stating
that it was a 7.65mm Mauser.
The next day, district attorney, Henry Wade gave a press conference,
confirming exactly what both of the officers stated and documented.
Post by Anthony Marsh
and he admitted that he was wrong.
What?!
A cop changed his story to match the official line??
Say it ain't so, Tony:-)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And he
did not handle it or examine it closely.
Ahh yes! After an "off record discusion", he declared that he only
"glanced" at it.
Not bad, for getting the make, the caliber, the exact spec of the scope
and a even a detailed description of the sling.
And since when do police officers sign sworn affidavits containing all
that detail, based on a casual "glance"?
After that, Captain Fritz, officer Day, officer Boone, and other
officers looked at that same rifle, and NOT ONE of them disputed the
claim that it was a 7.65 Mauser.
Post by Anthony Marsh
He only looked at it from a few
feet away.
You have no idea what he did.
You only know what he claimed he did in order to rationalize totally
changing his story.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Abnormally high??
This was Dallas, not Mudville Flats. They handled thousands of murder
cases and never had a reputation for incompetence. You people would have
them making more "mistakes" on this one case than they did on the
previous 100.
Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
2006-09-10 15:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman
Pure bullshit!!
Weitzman was accompanied by Officer Eugene Boone, who also inspected the
weapon and filed a report with the Sheriff's Office, clearly stating
that it was a 7.65mm Mauser.
Hmm. I wonder if that's an accurate representation of Boone's short
statement:

"Mr. Decker:
I was assisting in the search of the 6th floor of the Dallas County Book
Depository at Elm St. and Houston St. proceeding from the xxxxxx East side
of the building. Officer Whiteman DPD and I were together as we approched
the Northwest corner of the building xxxxxx I was the rifle partially hidden
behind a row of books with two (2) other boxes of books against the rifle.
The rifle appeared to be a 7.65 mm Mauser with a telescope sight on the
rifle. Capt. Fritz was called to the scene and also someone from the ID xxxx
pictures were taken and Capt Fritz picked up the rifle. I first saw the
rifle at 1:22pm date.

E. L. Boone 240 DSO"

"inspected" and "clearly stated"

Seems to me that he stated that it (I know you hate this word...;-))
"appeared" to be a 7.65 Mauser. Also note where he doesn't say that he
actually handled it, Bob.

From his testimony:

"When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the
floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of
boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that
the rifle was here.
Mr. BALL - What happened then?
Mr. BOONE - Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them
to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of
some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz
and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I
am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. And
at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed
from the place where it was."
-------------------------
Mr. BOONE - It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being positive.
Mr. BALL - You never handled it?
Mr. BOONE - I did not touch the weapon at all.
-------------------------
"Mr. BALL - There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle
as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it
was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it,
and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it
looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man
was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65
Mauser."
--------------------------

Boy, Bob, that really doesn't fit what you say about Boone, does it?

You have seen the film of the Carcano being taken from the TSBD, right Bob?
It appears to
have a Japanese 4x18 scope on it, doesn't it? It also has a leather strap.
It also has two of the
three numbers on it. It also looks like a Mauser.

This reminds me of one of the convening panels that mislabeled the lateral
autopsy x-rays
as being both left lateral films. The 'R' marker had been turned just a bit
and 'on a glance'
appeared to be an 'L'. But, when I really looked at it, I could see that it
was an 'R'.
Post by Robert Harris
The next day, district attorney, Henry Wade gave a press conference,
confirming exactly what both of the officers stated and documented.
Wade had never handled the rifle and was given bad second hand information.
The guy probably
wouldn't know the difference between a Mauser and a Howitzer.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
and he admitted that he was wrong.
What?!
A cop changed his story to match the official line??
Say it ain't so, Tony:-)
Yeah, cops don't make mistakes...just ask Barry Scheck.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
And he
did not handle it or examine it closely.
Ahh yes! After an "off record discusion", he declared that he only
"glanced" at it.
Boone actually stated that it *appeared* to be a Mauser which, as you know
by now, isn't a very conclusive statement, Bob.
Post by Robert Harris
Not bad, for getting the make, the caliber, the exact spec of the scope
and a even a detailed description of the sling.
The writing on the scope could easily be seen. The caliber, however,
isn't as easy to note. One thinking 7.65 could probably see the 65 on
it and think 765. Unlike the scope, it is not painted in white letters. It
is
engraved and blued with the rest of the metal and is only seen on a small
spot near the rear sight.

I suppose there just happened to be a 7.65mm Mauser on the 6th floor with
an identical Japanese scope on it with a similar leather shoulder strap
matching
the Carcano's.

The only think he got wrong was that a 7 didn't precede the 65 on the gun..a
capital
'L' did. Viewed at a glance, the long portion of the 'L' might appear to be
a preconceived
7. Its kind of like when you have it in your head that there were 5 shots
that day and
you start looking everywhere for things that support 5 shots...;-)

I know, Bob, such mistakes don't happen and the DPD was an excellent machine
that wouldn't employ anyone that could make that kind of mistake.
Post by Robert Harris
And since when do police officers sign sworn affidavits containing all
that detail, based on a casual "glance"?
He probably did see much of that. He may even have seen the 65 on it. Not
being familiar with 6.5mm rifles, one might actually think 765 instead.
Post by Robert Harris
After that, Captain Fritz, officer Day, officer Boone, and other
officers looked at that same rifle, and NOT ONE of them disputed the
claim that it was a 7.65 Mauser.
Day claims that he dictated that it was a 6.5mm to his secretary. The gun
was then sent to the FBI who positively identified it as the Carcano that
was
seen on the film being taken from its hiding place and marched into the DPD.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
He only looked at it from a few
feet away.
You have no idea what he did.
You would if you'd believe his testimony. But, you only believe the
testimony
when you want to believe it. Of course, all are guilty of that.
Post by Robert Harris
You only know what he claimed he did in order to rationalize totally
changing his story.
You only think he's rationalizing and bending over for the gov't
investigation.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Abnormally high??
This was Dallas, not Mudville Flats. They handled thousands of murder
cases and never had a reputation for incompetence. You people would have
them making more "mistakes" on this one case than they did on the
previous 100.
Yeah, Bob, this murder was just a simple old plain murder in Dallas without
intervention
of the SS, FBI, etc.

It is unique, Bob. The 5 million pages on it should be a clue to that.

Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-11 05:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
Yeah, because a Mauser looks a lot like a Carcano, something of which
I'm sure you already know.
Yes, hundreds of rifles looked similar to them. But this weapon was
examined by men from closeup as they held it in their hands, prior to
signing sworn affidavits that it was a Mauser.
Wrong. The only man who was there and saw the rifle and called it a
Mauser was Seymour Weitzman
Pure bullshit!!
Weitzman was accompanied by Officer Eugene Boone, who also inspected the
weapon and filed a report with the Sheriff's Office, clearly stating
that it was a 7.65mm Mauser.
Boone did not make an independent analysis. He just dittoed whatever
Weitzman said.
Post by Robert Harris
The next day, district attorney, Henry Wade gave a press conference,
confirming exactly what both of the officers stated and documented.
Not confirming. Reporting.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
and he admitted that he was wrong.
What?!
A cop changed his story to match the official line??
Say it ain't so, Tony:-)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And he
did not handle it or examine it closely.
Ahh yes! After an "off record discusion", he declared that he only
"glanced" at it.
Not bad, for getting the make, the caliber, the exact spec of the scope
and a even a detailed description of the sling.
He did not get the caliber. He guessed that a Mauser would typically be
7.65 mm. If he had actually looked at the rifle closely he would have
seen that it was stamped 6,5 mm.
You are hypothesizing that a second rifle, a Mauser, had EXACTLY the
same type of improvised sling as Oswald's? Now, that's quite a
coincidence. He guessed at the scope.
Post by Robert Harris
And since when do police officers sign sworn affidavits containing all
that detail, based on a casual "glance"?
In Dallas all the time.
Post by Robert Harris
After that, Captain Fritz, officer Day, officer Boone, and other
officers looked at that same rifle, and NOT ONE of them disputed the
claim that it was a 7.65 Mauser.
None of them knew any better. Idiots all.
Day knew better after he took it back to the lab and examined it. Your
scenario would have Day as part of the conspiracy switching rifles.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
He only looked at it from a few
feet away.
You have no idea what he did.
Of course I do. Alyea was there and filming.
Post by Robert Harris
You only know what he claimed he did in order to rationalize totally
changing his story.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You need to do more than just look at the rifle. It is
clearly stamped Terni which is not a Mauser identification mark. The
Fascist date stamping never appears on Mausers.
Post by Robert Harris
Furthermore, it was part of their job to accurately describe weapons
that might have been involved in a crime. Murder weapons especially, had
to be properly ID'd or the guilty parties would walk.
You are assuming an abnormally high level of competence for the local
police. They couldn't even figure out what type of bullet almost hit Walker.
Abnormally high??
This was Dallas, not Mudville Flats. They handled thousands of murder
cases and never had a reputation for incompetence. You people would have
them making more "mistakes" on this one case than they did on the
previous 100.
Robert Harris
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
Post by Robert Harris
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about.
LOL!
Chad, I love it when you have to resort to such lame ridicule when you
have no way to counter an argument.
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
So, in a silent film, you know what they're talking about when most
of the guys' faces are away from the camera! Amazing!
When did you decide I knew what they were talking about?
Have you noticed how often you have to focus your ridicule on your own
fabrications, rather than on what I actually say?
All I said was the obvious, Chad. These guys are totally focused on that
weapon, whatever it was and for whatever reason. You can insult me from
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
First of all, at the beginning of the clip, it appears to be the officer
talking (watch
his head nodding and the hand movement) and
everyone is looking at him. Then, attention appears to be shifted to a guy
to
the left of the officer. There is no indication of any kind that they're
transfixed
by a weapon he's holding. This is another of your wishful scenarios.
This is America, Chad. You have every right to state your opinion, no
matter how "moronic" it is:-)
Robert Harris
Post by Dr. Chad Zimmerman
It makes no
Post by Robert Harris
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
And how can you tell that they're talking about the gun? You can't.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Because it most likely was a police issue shotgun, Bob. That's what cops
use.
Post by Robert Harris
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Which has nothing to do with that clip.
Chad
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
www.jfkhistory.com
Martin Shackelford
2006-09-10 03:39:24 UTC
Permalink
This has been repeatedly identified as a police weapon for years now.
I'm surprised the claim that it is a "second rifle" is still being
repeated. The fact that the group is talking isn't even clear from the
clip, and the idea that you can tell they are talking about the weapon
is truly a stretch. The weapon is being held upright in the same
position as we see officers holding similar weapons in other photos.
Usually, this claim was accompanied by the claim that another clip from
Mentesana shows the rifle being brought down from the TSBD roof, though
no such weapon appears in that clip at all. This is another hardy myth
of the case. Tony Marsh was hardly the first to point this out.
Trying to connect it to the Mauser confusion makes no sense either, as
no one claimed a Mauser was found on the roof, and Alyea's footage,
taken as the rifle was first lifted out from the boxes, clearly shows
the Mannlicher Carcano.
Clinging to these myths doesn't get us any closer to the truth of this case.

Martin
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Robert Harris
Walt
2006-09-10 16:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Shackelford
This has been repeatedly identified as a police weapon for years now.
I'm surprised the claim that it is a "second rifle" is still being
repeated. The fact that the group is talking isn't even clear from the
clip, and the idea that you can tell they are talking about the weapon
is truly a stretch. The weapon is being held upright in the same
position as we see officers holding similar weapons in other photos.
Usually, this claim was accompanied by the claim that another clip from
Mentesana shows the rifle being brought down from the TSBD roof, though
no such weapon appears in that clip at all. This is another hardy myth
of the case. Tony Marsh was hardly the first to point this out.
Trying to connect it to the Mauser confusion makes no sense either, as
no one claimed a Mauser was found on the roof, and Alyea's footage,
taken as the rifle was first lifted out from the boxes, clearly shows
the Mannlicher Carcano.
Clinging to these myths doesn't get us any closer to the truth of this case.
Martin
Well said, Martin. I doubt we'll ever be able to put this piece of
nonsense away for good. There are always going to be individuals who
know little or nothing, about firearms, who will continue to think the
cop is holding.... "one of the snipers rifles".

Walt

Walt
Post by Martin Shackelford
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-11 05:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Shackelford
This has been repeatedly identified as a police weapon for years now.
I'm surprised the claim that it is a "second rifle" is still being
repeated. The fact that the group is talking isn't even clear from the
clip, and the idea that you can tell they are talking about the weapon
is truly a stretch. The weapon is being held upright in the same
position as we see officers holding similar weapons in other photos.
Usually, this claim was accompanied by the claim that another clip from
Mentesana shows the rifle being brought down from the TSBD roof, though
no such weapon appears in that clip at all. This is another hardy myth
of the case. Tony Marsh was hardly the first to point this out.
Nor did I claim to be the first. What I hoped to add was identifying the
type of weapon, even the model of the shotgun.
Post by Martin Shackelford
Trying to connect it to the Mauser confusion makes no sense either, as
no one claimed a Mauser was found on the roof, and Alyea's footage,
taken as the rifle was first lifted out from the boxes, clearly shows
the Mannlicher Carcano.
Clinging to these myths doesn't get us any closer to the truth of this case.
Martin
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim
by anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him
that he was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the
Mentesana film, which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was
actually a shotgun, issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the
weapon looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a
shotgun. Of course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to
back up his subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned
that most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact,
military snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the
sake of improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by
DPD people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on
the rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It
makes no sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard
issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that
were a lot stupider than that:-)
Robert Harris
Walt
2006-09-10 03:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Bob If you don't know much about firearms ( and apparently you don't) then
you should just keep you opinon to yourself. The Mentesanta photo doesn't
prove anything, except that fools will believe anything. I am familar with
firearms, and I wouldn't bet a saw buck that the weapon seen in the photo
is a rifle, but I believe it is a shotgun.


That's not based on the LENGTH of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns can be
the same length, and depending on the model a rtfle might be longer than a
shotgun or vice versa. The DIAMETER of the barrel of the weapon in the
Mentesanta photo is the dimension that makes it appear to be a standard 12
gauge shotgun.

By claiming that it could be a rifle you only stir up ill conceived
theories. Theories that should have been discarded 40 years ago.

Walt
cdddraftsman
2006-09-10 16:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Dredging this up , is Roberts attempt to get me upset , personally .
It's all my fault , I guess I never should of called his Z-285 analysis
, the Snore Analysis ! My Apology's for stirring up this hornets nest
of misbegotten backwash , that no one ever believed in except Robert
Groden . .....Tom Lowry
Post by Walt
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Bob If you don't know much about firearms ( and apparently you don't) then
you should just keep you opinon to yourself. The Mentesanta photo doesn't
prove anything, except that fools will believe anything. I am familar with
firearms, and I wouldn't bet a saw buck that the weapon seen in the photo
is a rifle, but I believe it is a shotgun.
That's not based on the LENGTH of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns can be
the same length, and depending on the model a rtfle might be longer than a
shotgun or vice versa. The DIAMETER of the barrel of the weapon in the
Mentesanta photo is the dimension that makes it appear to be a standard 12
gauge shotgun.
By claiming that it could be a rifle you only stir up ill conceived
theories. Theories that should have been discarded 40 years ago.
Walt
Ricky
2006-09-10 16:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Bob If you don't know much about firearms ( and apparently you don't) then
you should just keep you opinon to yourself. The Mentesanta photo doesn't
prove anything, except that fools will believe anything. I am familar with
firearms, and I wouldn't bet a saw buck that the weapon seen in the photo
is a rifle, but I believe it is a shotgun.
That's not based on the LENGTH of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns can be
the same length, and depending on the model a rtfle might be longer than a
shotgun or vice versa. The DIAMETER of the barrel of the weapon in the
Mentesanta photo is the dimension that makes it appear to be a standard 12
gauge shotgun.
By claiming that it could be a rifle you only stir up ill conceived
theories. Theories that should have been discarded 40 years ago.
Groden is one who submits that it is a rifle. I think the pump action
is also seen and as I recall it is or should be Remmington model 840
pump.
Post by Walt
Walt
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-10 04:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Here we go again. Not just a claim. I actually wrote the letter. Groden
admitted reading it and ignoring it.
Post by Robert Harris
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
Wrong. Did you actually read the letter I sent to Groden? No, of course
not. I rest my case. You simply don't know what the Hell you are talking
about. Here is what I said in this newsgroup on Aug 26, 2004:

No, the barrel is too big. And you can see the magazine cap. The profile
matches a Remington 780 pump shotgun, one of the types that other photos
show some DPD officers carrying.

My point was not about the overall length of the weapon. My point was
about the diameter of the barrel, too big around for most rifles and
typical of a shotgun. I also pointed out the magazine cap which is
typical of shotguns, not rifles. Then I went beyond that and compared
several different shotguns that were seen in the hands of the Dallas
cops that day. The Remington 870 fit the profile perfect, down to the
length of the barrel beyond the stock, type of magazine cap, and
diameter of the barrel.
Then I went beyond that and actually made an acetate overlay of a
standard reference diagram of a Remington 780 scaled to a print of the
film frame to demonstrate a perfect match.
Post by Robert Harris
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
As typical, you misinterpret and waste your time trying to debunk things
I never said.
Post by Robert Harris
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
The men were talking to each other about what just happened. Not
examining the weapon. The cop is resting it on his hip. Holding it in
his bare hands. Not the way to handle a piece of evidence.
Post by Robert Harris
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-)
Robert Harris
Jim Shannon
2006-09-12 14:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
Robert Harris
2006-09-12 22:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
I don't know what make and model it was, though there are certainly a
lot of people here who are willing to pretend that they do :-)

I do know however, that military snipers rifles are often extremely
long - as long as most shotguns or even longer.

The film segment is intriguing to me though, and I find it hard to
believe that all these guys are huddled around that cop, just to hear
him talk about his standard issue shotgun:-)

http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov





Robert Harris
There is no question that an honest man will evade.

The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-13 19:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
I don't know what make and model it was, though there are certainly a
lot of people here who are willing to pretend that they do :-)
I do know however, that military snipers rifles are often extremely
long - as long as most shotguns or even longer.
The issue was never the length of the barrel. You just got confused
about this because you didn't read my letter to Groden. My point was
about the shape of the weapon, the magazine cap and the DIAMETER of the
barrel. All characteristic of a shotgun, in particular the Remington 870
model.
Post by Robert Harris
The film segment is intriguing to me though, and I find it hard to
believe that all these guys are huddled around that cop, just to hear
him talk about his standard issue shotgun:-)
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
That meeting is not about the weapon. It is a miscaption.
Post by Robert Harris
Robert Harris
There is no question that an honest man will evade.
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Walt
2006-09-16 01:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
I don't know what make and model it was, though there are certainly a
lot of people here who are willing to pretend that they do :-)
I do know however, that military snipers rifles are often extremely
long - as long as most shotguns or even longer.
The issue was never the length of the barrel. You just got confused
about this because you didn't read my letter to Groden. My point was
about the shape of the weapon, the magazine cap and the DIAMETER of the
barrel. All characteristic of a shotgun, in particular the Remington 870
model.
Post by Robert Harris
The film segment is intriguing to me though, and I find it hard to
believe that all these guys are huddled around that cop, just to hear
him talk about his standard issue shotgun:-)
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
That meeting is not about the weapon. It is a miscaption.
BINGO!!.... EXCELLENT POINT .... Many of the photos raken after the
murder are miscaptioned. Whether they are deliberately misleading or just
misguided ideas of the reporter is open to debate .... but there is no
doubt that a large percentage of the photos are incorrectly captioned.
This is KEY to learning the truth.

I believe we can finally bury this long dead dog.... If we merely observe
how the Carcano was handled when it was found down among the boxes.....It
was found by a uniformed officer, who knew that uniformed officers do not
touch evidence. They know that they are to protect the evidence until
someone from the Crime Lab arrives to take custody of the evidence. That's
exactly how the Carcano was handled. If the weapon seen in the Mantesana
photo was actually a suspects weapon it would have been left in place
until the Crime Lab arrived. The uniformed Cop would not be holding it as
is seen in the photo.


Walt

c***@webtv.net
2006-09-12 22:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
Whatever it was, it wasn't the Oswald planted weapon.

The rifle found under the boxes was a Mauser from the other guy they
won't talk about.

"He was present on the sixth floor, during the search. In a March 17,
1975 letter written to Edward Tatro, a Commission critic living in
Massachusetts, he said: "Deputy Eugene Boone and I found the rifle,
which I might add was a 7.65 Mauser, so stamped on the barrel."

In another letter to Tatro on April 9th, 1975, "As to the photograph of
the shells, they were in uniform [position] lying on the floor no more
than two inches apart facing the same direction when I found them."

This is your typical Presidential Assassination Framing A Patsy Scene.

CJ
Walt
2006-09-12 22:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
Jim, many years ago ( before you were born) Bolt action rifles were
generically called "Mausers". Prior to the advent of bolt action rifles
the lever action rifle was the most popular. Since Winchester invented
the lever action rifle many folks called all lever action rifles"
Winchesters" When repeating rifles advanced from lever actions to
bolt actions many folks referred to all bolt action rifles as
"Mausers." Fritz was an old timer, so when he spotted the bolt action
Mannlicher Carcano down among the boxes he simply called it a "Mauser",
to denote that it was a bolt action rifle, not that it was
manufactured on the Mauser design.


Walt
Ricky
2006-09-13 19:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
Jim, many years ago ( before you were born) Bolt action rifles were
generically called "Mausers". Prior to the advent of bolt action rifles
the lever action rifle was the most popular. Since Winchester invented
the lever action rifle many folks called all lever action rifles"
Winchesters" When repeating rifles advanced from lever actions to
bolt actions many folks referred to all bolt action rifles as
"Mausers." Fritz was an old timer, so when he spotted the bolt action
Mannlicher Carcano down among the boxes he simply called it a "Mauser",
to denote that it was a bolt action rifle, not that it was
manufactured on the Mauser design.
I doubt that. The MC is made from the Mauser design and uses a Mauser
type bolt and looks very much like a Mauser as opposed to a Winchester
Model 70 or Remmington 700. Most of the WWII generation new of the
Mauser. Weitzman worked in or owned a sporting goods store at one
time. They said Mauser for good reason. It looks like a Mauser and
actually has a Mauser Bolt action design.
Post by Walt
Walt
Anthony Marsh
2006-09-15 02:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricky
Post by Walt
Post by Jim Shannon
Post by Robert Harris
One of the many ludicrous "debunkings" at mcadams website is a claim by
anthony marsh that he sent a letter to Robert Groden, advising him that he
was wrong in claiming that the apparent rifle shown in the Mentesana film,
which Groden suggested, was found in the TSBD, was actually a shotgun,
issued by the DPD.
Marsh's only justification for his claim was his opinion that the weapon
looked too large to be a rifle and so, must have been a shotgun. Of
course, marsh offered no dimensions or anything else to back up his
subjective opinion.
In fact, within five minutes of cruising the web I quickly learned that
most shotguns were generally, no larger than rifles, and in fact, military
snipers rifles were frequently, *extremely* long, for the sake of
improving accuracy.
http://jfkhistory.com/rifle.mov
You will need Quicktime 7.0 or later.
Frankly, I remain an agnostic on this subject, although I find the
recollection of AFT agent Frank Ellsworth that DPD officers said they
found two different rifles, as well as the early sworn affidavits by DPD
people, describing a Mauser rifle, to be compelling.
In the film, the small group of men do indeed, seem to be fixated on the
rifle the officer is holding, and apparently, talking about. It makes no
sense that they would be so totally engrossed in a standard issue shotgun.
OTOH, I have to wonder why such a weapon wouldn't be wrapped up and
protected from contamination, rather than on display in the street.
Of course, if we believe the LNT team, the DPD cops did things that were a
lot stupider than that:-
Is it a Mauser or a shotgun? Weitzman seems to have some obsession with
Mausers that day didn't he?
Jim, many years ago ( before you were born) Bolt action rifles were
generically called "Mausers". Prior to the advent of bolt action rifles
the lever action rifle was the most popular. Since Winchester invented
the lever action rifle many folks called all lever action rifles"
Winchesters" When repeating rifles advanced from lever actions to
bolt actions many folks referred to all bolt action rifles as
"Mausers." Fritz was an old timer, so when he spotted the bolt action
Mannlicher Carcano down among the boxes he simply called it a "Mauser",
to denote that it was a bolt action rifle, not that it was
manufactured on the Mauser design.
I doubt that. The MC is made from the Mauser design and uses a Mauser
type bolt and looks very much like a Mauser as opposed to a Winchester
Model 70 or Remmington 700. Most of the WWII generation new of the
Mauser. Weitzman worked in or owned a sporting goods store at one
time. They said Mauser for good reason. It looks like a Mauser and
actually has a Mauser Bolt action design.
Correct. It is a very natural mistake for non experts to make.
Post by Ricky
Post by Walt
Walt
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