Post by ***@netscape.com Post by Walt Post by ***@netscape.com
IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE
Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all
THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald
fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires
that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final
live round in the clip was chambered.
So far so good.
Post by Walt
They said Oswald had FOUR
cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells
were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest"
Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY
Post by Walt
IF there were three
spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER
the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt
after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last
cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at
I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that
the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are
contridicted yourself here, but you are right here!
Post by Walt
BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a
Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun,
remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun?
Post by Walt
What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw
down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and
hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the
rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the
chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in
the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO
mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip
until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there
is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago
there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of
How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it?
If I may.
There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD
was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found.
This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at
police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the
According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army
and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at
Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the
operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a
problem with the clip.
According to both of them:
MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did
not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier
carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was
chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top
and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The
battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as
original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used
with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in
Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade
clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or
hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended
The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in
some rifles does not."
-- Anthony Marsh
The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)
appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo
and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:
ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano
rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6
cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -
plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and
then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from
top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered
during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when
Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine
and clip were retained.
The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out
when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were
made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not
available. Some were even
homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty
and a round was found in the chamber. The
clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been
emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably
because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian
ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the
world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.
Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable.
June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47,
WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless
there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the
chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!
WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The
clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and
they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/
chargers you have a single shot rifle!
However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge,
and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then
ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles
H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips.
The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this
phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions.
Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked
for details about their firing test:
Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber
and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
firing into it, in order to recover the
projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using
the clip, were you?
******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
**** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time
firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.
Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open
up" statement, this result demands further explanation.
"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the
loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE
541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on
page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the
rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography
session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when
and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a
violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how
then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?
---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle
That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not
the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is
suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was
changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald.
That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number
changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will
prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any
good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number.
A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the
weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing
is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that
connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows
that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the
barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the
serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith.
From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:
"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About
six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read
C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,
by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would
get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a
duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene
of the crime"
Numerous weapons experts have compared the photos taken by Marina with
photos of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same
The Second Carcano
We must hopefully use absolute evidence when we can, evidence that
could be used in a courtroom and there is really very little that
could be used against Oswald. Working in the building where the shots
came from is not enough and there is doubt that three shots even came
from the building. It was the serial number that connected Oswald to
the murder weapon
There was no missed shot....?
Despite the claims that there were three shots from the TSBD fired at
the JFK limousine.... prove it... Where is the physical evidence? The
three shell casings found under the sixth floor window? That won't do.
Even the Warren Wizards weren't sure.
SEE Page 110 and 111 of the Report to the President NUMBER OF SHOTS
"The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots
were fired.332 However, some heard only two shots,333 while others
testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six
shots.334 The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of
gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding
the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises:
the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which
the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the
noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the
bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by
the impact of the bullet on its target.335 Each noise can be quite
sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in
the area might have further distorted the sound.
The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the
conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED As discussed previously,
the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two
larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were
identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least
two separate bullets and possibly from three.336 The most convincing
evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence
on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated
to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which
caused the wounds. It is POSSIBLE that the assassin carried an EMPTY
SHELL in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses
hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the
Even Zapruder was not sure of the shot sequence:
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you
I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I
thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing
that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got
a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me
looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a
And Tague thought the shots came from up on the hill:
Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try
to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what
sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It
certainly didn't sound like a rifle shot. It was more of a loud
cannon- type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing
firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the
motorcade and, of course, two more shots.
And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting
after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge
abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I
looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the
Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.
Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record
of recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through
Kennedy and Connally and magically remained near pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.
This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little
was lost in its destructive journey.
A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was recovered from Connally's arm.
Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a
couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the
In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was
never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed
more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was
described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine,
"The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.
So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine
from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose
of one bullet or of two separate bullets." WR
If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost pristine, the last bullet logically would have to be the bullet
that hit JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same
projectile I disagree with this conclusion.
I suspect that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo,the remains of the single bullet , and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard
shots before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably
hit by a fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED
FIRST SHOT. He also thought that the shots came from the "hill"
I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the murder, I would be sure to provide evidence that
would assure the connection to the rifle and its owner. And since I
could not rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired
at the occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the
barrel of the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it
where it would be found. Enter the near pristine Parkland slug.
And enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
As Assistant. DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the
Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
Amen and amen.
Now we will hear from WALT correcting me again.
Let us prey.